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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Lanny quoted:
Matthew 7
8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 Which one of you would hand his son a stone when he asks for a loaf of bread,
10 or a snake when he asks for a fish?
11 If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give good things to those who ask him.
I have no doubt that God does give good gifts to those who ask. Baptism can be looked at as a form of asking. In fact, part of the baptismal rite involves declaring what we are asking for. In addition, those who have lost children who were not baptized, such as I, who ask God to bring their children to heaven, may well have that prayer granted. What a wonderful thing to discover some day. We hope in the mercy of God.
The most dangerous thing is to presume. With this theology of "knowing" that an unbaptized child still goes to heaven, a person may not even ask, but just presume upon the Lord. The ninth chapter of Romans talks about presumption. There is no need to copy/paste it here. Basically, it tells the Jews that they cannot presume that they are children of God and not children of wrath simply because their ancestors were. I believe the same applies to us.
My apologies if my delivery is cold. Obviously I myself am not dealing with the loss of a child at this moment. I would cry along with someone in their suffering. Sometimes things that are true are hard to accept because they don't go our way. It is easier to accept things that seem friendly to our troubles. But the truth is the truth.
Together we can help each other make it through times of difficulty. One person's suffering is an opportunity for another person's exercise of charity. God intended us to help each other through hard situations, not by promoting false teachings that are not of God, but by exercising charity in communion with God and each other.
If anyone who reads this is suffering, stay close to a Christian community and stay close to God. We can make it through together.
God Bless,
Andre
| Andre YOU are presuming too. I saw a whole lotta scripture quotes about baptism, point out the ones to me that were done on people who had never come to faith? or the ones done on infants. Burying us in scripture does not mean you are not presuming. If we could use those the way you use them why not just baptise each other for the dead like mormons do, faith isn't required after all, according to you. To be the last one standing doesn't mean you are right. Only that everyone else is too embarrassed to continue. Ugh, and here I am continuing. I'm not going to read this thread anymore or I can't shut up. You sound all gracious but really, what you are saying is that YOU care so much about infants you don't want their care to be left to God who can't be trusted as much as you can, you are the only thing between hell and that one child that might be saved from God. You don't hear how your words make God sound. In being so "caring" you make God out to be a horror.
| Lanny, to answer your last post, we have faith in God's promises, but we have hope about those things for which have not yet come to pass. We are not guaranteed eternal beatitude in heaven by nature, or even once we "accept Jesus Christ", or even once we are baptized. Rather we must persevere to the end of our lives with faith in his promises and with hope that God will judge us worthy (which is only possible through grace). That is why we hope that in the end, we will be taken to heaven.
The opposites of hope are presumption and despair. Presumption denies the reality of hope; it is the belief that "God will take me to heaven no matter what". Despair is complete lack of hope, the belief that "God is unable to save me". The life of faith is in between: I believe in God's promises, yet I know that I must persevere to the end, I have hope that God will grant sufficient grace to save me.
| Kelley, you asked for scripture, so I provided some. This is not even close to the amount of scriptural support for the truths of baptism. Why ask for scripture and then criticize the amount when I provide it?
I have already pointed out the ones where the people being baptized (children of those who had come to faith, those in Acts 16) had not come to faith yet. The children and "those far off" are also part of the promise, that is Acts 2:39.
Once we are dead, we cannot be baptized, because we are not in what is called the "wayfaring state". If someone has "just" died or there is question as to whether or not they are dead, they can be conditionally baptized; their soul may not have left their body. Salvation is a free gift, not something we earn, and when we are not able to have faith, we can still be saved. Faith is required in the person baptized for baptism if they are capable; if they are not capable it is required by the person's parents (and a promise they will raise them in the faith) or the person baptizing (if the person baptized is about to die). Those persons, once they become able to have faith, must then live that life of faith to the end to be saved.
I'm not continuing to argue to be the last one standing. I'm providing the foundation for my beliefs because its important and I believe that it is the truth, I have provided both scripture and the beliefs of the early church to support it. The only thing anyone else has submitted is an opinion about what God would do based on their own personal beliefs about God.
I hope that this thread has been somehow helpful to the original poster. I guess if I were you, I would ask the parents about what they believe about baptism or what faith background they believe in, and ask them if they have considered baptizing their child. They will be judged, in their own way, for what they decide, and they have the true authority over their children. But its really up to your conscience on what you should say to them based on your convictions. Just my opinion.
If the parents were not available and a child was about to die in my care, I would personally baptize the child. If the parents don't believe baptism saves, or if it doesn't (according to some) then what harm could baptism do? If baptism does save and they die, then you have saved a soul. If baptism does save and the child lives, then you have brought them into the kingdom of God and they are better off for it. Many denominations will teach their adherents that infant baptisms are invalid so they can be "re-baptized" if they want to, I guess.
| Kelly, I don't have time right now to study the matter out. I'd encourage you to do a search for some keywords in Scripture at www.biblegateway.com though. I would set it to New American Standard version by default, because of the modern versions available, that version is the truest to the original language in terms of sentence structure and wording. It also is the version with the most cross-linking to other verses on www.biblegateway.com.
If you find a particular verse you have questions about, I would look up the verse at www.blueletterbible.org and when you find the verse click on the "C" icon on the left hand pane to see the interlinear, along with the exact words which appear in the original language along with their definitions. If you click on the Strong's number for a word, you can see every other instance of that original language word in the Bible. It's a very power tool.
Scripture shows that the Blood of Jesus is applied by God even to those who never had a chance to hear about Jesus directly or be baptized, because the list of heroes of the faith in Hebrews 11 includes people from the Old Testament who pre-dated the full understanding of Jesus' coming and of baptism. Scripture also indicates that God can judge people justly in spite of whether they've ever even heard of the law of God or not, in Romans 2:12-16, and that the Judge of all the earth is One who judges justly, in Genesis 19:25 Those might be a couple of starting points, as well as doing keyword searches. I would try to find original Greek and Hebrew words for newborns, and look up any verses that use those Greek and Hebrew words. It could be an interesting study.
Andre, I appreciate the Scriptures you posted earlier. I don't always agree with the Catholic exegesis or extrapolations, but I always appreciate seeing viewpoints linked to the Word.
| Thanks everyone for trying to help me out with my questions. Its seems the post has sparked some debate that had been ongoing and as I'm relatively new to this it is a bit difficult for me to understand. In my limited understanding of what I have read here I think I would have to believe that if a child hasn't reached the of "age of accountability" then they would go to heaven and this gives me peace of mind and i think will help me in my job. The baptisms is a bit more complicated and i'll have to think about it.
The why it had to happen to the child in the first place is more difficult to understand from my view point and i'm sure it must be even harder for the parents, but maybe we are not meant to understand. Your comments have certainly helped. it has been something i have been thinking about for a while now and I'm glad i brought it to the community. Thanks.
| This is actually the first time I have commented on a thread. It bothers me. I grew up in a Protestant Church and was baptized as an infant. Never(that I can recall)did I hear a sermon preached on salvation. I married a Mennonite man and we continued going to his church when we were married where I became a member in 2001 when I was baptized. As Mennonites, we believe(again, just our beliefs) that children do not need to be baptized to be saved. We have a special service where we "dedicate" our infants to the Lord. We believe infants, because of their innocence and not yet being of age to be held accountable would be saved if they were to die before they make the confession of faith in Jesus Christ. So, if my 7 year old son were to die before he invites Jesus into his heart, I have full assurance in my heart that he will be going to heaven.
I believe that baptism goes hand in hand with faith. Again, in Acts 2 we are told to "repent and be baptized." A child certainly cannot repent. And in Matthew 16 Jesus says "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved..." Again, a child certainly cannot believe.
Let's just say that I never came to know Jesus and died after the age of accountability. Since I was baptized as an infant does that mean I am saved? I don't believe that is true. I think salvation is all about the invitation for Christ to live in our hearts and living for Him. I do not believe there is anything wrong with infant baptism, afterall, that's what I grew up with. I just don't believe it is necessary for an infant or child to be saved. Just my 2 cents. Love this community and the conversation that the forums bring.
And to cflannigan- God bless you in your profession. It takes a very special person to deal with small children dying. There is nothing wrong with answering those difficult questions with "i don't know. I just trust the Lord." His will is something that I am certainly not an expert on(that's why it's His will and not mine)
| I am very new to the Bible. But isn't there someplace in the Bible that says:God knew you before you were even born so since God knew us before we were born then I truly believe if a baby dies God will take this baby to heaven baptized or not.
38 years ago I had a miscarriage at 3 months of pregnancy. God knew this baby, he still knows this baby and God has my baby in heaven with him.
I have been to a funeral where the parents lost their child, I will hug the parents and tell them: "Have faith, for your little one is in heaven with God and he/she is an angel"
| Lynn, yes The Bibles does say God new us before we were born.
Psa 71:6 Yes, You have been with me from birth; from my mother's womb You have cared for me. No wonder I am always praising You!
Psa 139:13 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:15 You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.
Isa 49:1 Listen to me, all you in distant lands! Pay attention, you who are far away! The LORD called me before my birth; from within the womb He called me by name.
Jer 1:5 "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as My prophet to the nations."
| :)
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