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Bible Questions and Spiritual Discussion
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Yes, I think you understand what I mean by "progressive revelation,"
though I prefer the term "progressive comprehension."
The traditional term "progressive revelation" implies that God reveals himself
according to where people are and what they can understand,
and commanded the violence we're talking about
because that's something they would understand -
they weren't ready for a fuller revelation of God's love.
But I don't think what God commands changes - only our understanding of God's will.
That's why I say that the OT people got it "Wrong," or if you prefer "less Right."
They were beginning to grasp God's command of holiness, but didn't quite get that in using violence toward that end, they weren't quite comprehending yet the ways of God, which would only become ultimate clear when Jesus demonstrated that dealing with one's enemies, and protecting themselves from contamination by the world, demanded - not using the violent means of the world, but following in God's way of love. In other words, when the Israelites thought that God was telling them to insure their holiness by using the violent, unholy means of the neighbors,
I believe that at that point in their history, they just "didn't quite get it."
The prophets began to get it, and the followers of Jesus sort of got it,
though the atrocities sometimes perpetrated in the name of Christianity, by people who still thought they were doing God's will, suggests that many people still don't get it. And even those who "get it" don't always act accordingly - and I would have to include myself in that category. That's why, even now, we continually have to fall back upon God's grace.
| yeah, I've been thinking about the symbolic in the background, but they are not just symbols, but really guides to our lives and our decisions. I was very impressed by Francis Chan when he spoke passionately about Romans 8 (New International Version) 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
In my own struggle with sin I've been there. It is life and death turning point. You put it to death or it will kill you. It is very painful, a death match. It's you or the flesh and it isn't easy, but the consequences are real. I know when I didn't see it that way there was real danger for me and it was much easier to fall, cheap grace was always there. I'm not saying I'm sinless, I'm saying I'm in the war and I don't have a white flag flying by default as I have at times.
Our life view seems to me at the core of this divide. Essentially, are we following rules or walking with the Holy Spirit. Jesus said this, therefore it becomes a new set of rules. I don't think that is why he taught us, to bring new rules. It was to make the love affair possible. My thoughts are not complete, but this is my starting place. Our Lord is not just words from a book. The words from the book are helpful, but only in as much as they help us walk with Him. He's here, alive, and very active.
The phrase "progressive comprehension" draws attention to something in the divide. Comprehension is about us, our understanding. I don't think the Lord demands our understanding. I think that is what makes me the most uncomfortable about this position. It puts us and our logic on the throne. Jesus said this, therefore that's the NEW rule. I'm not saying we should not use our brains, rather I know for a fact that I require the Spirit to be of value in the war effort. My comprehension of what is going on is not required. It's much harder to walk with Him, brutal, scary, and glorious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKYJLfWqTBY
| Ray,
you said,
"The phrase "progressive comprehension" draws attention to something in the divide. Comprehension is about us, our understanding. I don't think the Lord demands our understanding. I think that is what makes me the most uncomfortable about this position. It puts us and our logic on the throne."
I don't disagree with you.
In fact, we seem to be saying much the same thing,
but strangely, we seem to be coming to opposite conclusions.
Human understaning is never perfect,
and God doesn't demand our complete understanding.
But MIS-understanding DOES matter.
And what I'm suggesting is that the Israelites
WERE putting themselves and their WRONG understanding on the throne
when they slaughtered their neighbors.
They were leaning on their own understanding,
and came to a completely different conclusion
about the nature of God and the demands of God
than what Jesus came to demonstrate
and which the Spirit awakens within us.
When we react negatively as we do about the violence in the Old Testament,
I think it's more than human logic or understanding,
I think it's the Spirit within us telling us
that there's just something not right about this.
| No conclusions here so far. My spiritual head has spoken. I need to weigh things and discern. Lanny, you wrote this in the "WHAT" thread and it gets to my point.
"God did not endow me with a conscience or a sense of right and wrong for no reason."
and here:
"I think it's the Spirit within us telling us that there's just something not right about this."
Our conscience and sense is the Holy Spirit leading us?
| Today's utmost...absolutely stunning: July 20th.
DEPENDENT ON GOD'S PRESENCE
"They that wait upon the Lord . . . shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31
There is no thrill in walking; it is the test of all the stable qualities. To "walk and not faint" is the highest reach possible for strength. The word "walk" is used in the Bible to express the character - "John looking on Jesus as He walked, said, Behold the Lamb of God!" There is never any thing abstract in the Bible, it is always vivid and real. God does not say - Be spiritual, but - "Walk before Me."
When we are in an unhealthy state physically or emotionally, we always want thrills. In the physical domain this will lead to counterfeiting the Holy Ghost; in the emotional life it leads to inordinate affection and the destruction of morality; and in the spiritual domain if we insist on getting thrills, on mounting up with wings, it will end in the destruction of spirituality.
The reality of God's presence is not dependent on any place, but only dependent upon the determination to set the Lord always before us. Our problems come when we refuse to bank on the reality of His presence. The experience the Psalmist speaks of - "Therefore will we not fear, though . . ." will be ours when once we are based on Reality, not the consciousness of God's presence but the reality of it - Why, He has been here all the time!
At critical moments it is necessary to ask guidance, but it ought to be unnecessary to be saying always - "O Lord, direct me here, and there." Of course He will! If our common-sense decisions are not His order, He will press through them and check; then we must be quiet and wait for the direction of His presence.
I guess "sense" and "conscience" are part our our toolbox, but it isn't the "reality of His presence" which is so easily forgotten. My leader's thread was laced with "I think." Do you know how many times "I think" is in the "murder" and "WHAT" threads?
His presence. His presence. His presence.
| "Our conscience and sense is the Holy Spirit leading us?"
Not necessarily...But they are ways the Spirit can lead us.
| the conscience has the capacity to act in the Holy Spirit - in fact, I almost consider them synonyms. However, people in the world learn to shut up their consciences in situations where something can be gained in a bad way. Therefore, for all of us (or at LEAST most of us) we ignore its sound programming. Therefore, the confusion over what the conscience is. (or perhaps the conscience is merely a tutor for the holy spirit...)
note: I said conscience, not heart.
| The Ransomed Heart post today made me realize why I am uncomfortable. I look at the OT in awe and not disappointment. I think Brian hinted at this in his "WHAT" post when he wrote "the Old Testament is historically written as the 30,000 foot view of things." When I read in the OT I get a sense of Christ's majestic nature, God's love, and how small I am. His presence is there and the love story is so amazing. If you throw it under the bus you discard countless chances at being humbled by His love. Jesus is there in OT, don't you see Him? "Before Abraham was, I am." He's no rule giver with a beard. He's so much more epic and you loose that with this filter.
This war is not about our behavior, it's about our unity with Him which He's been fighting for since Eden:
And so Screwtape reveals the Enemy's ploy-first make humans flabby, with small passions and desires, then offer a sop to those diminished passions so that their experience is one of contentment. They know nothing of great joy or great sorrow. They are merely nice.
Christianity has come to the point where we believe that there is no higher aspiration for the human soul than to be nice. We are producing a generation of men and women whose greatest virtue is that they don't offend anyone. Then we wonder why there is not more passion for Christ. How can we hunger and thirst after righteousness if we have ceased hungering and thirsting altogether?
As C. S. Lewis said, "We castrate the gelding and bid him be fruitful."
The greatest enemy of holiness is not passion; it is apathy. Look at Jesus. He was no milksop. His life was charged with passion. After he drove the crooks from the temple, "his disciples remembered that it is written: 'Zeal for your house will consume me'" (John 2:17). This isn't quite the pictures we have in Sunday school, Jesus with a lamb and a child or two, looking for all the world like Mr. Rogers with a beard. The world's nicest guy. He was something far more powerful. He was holy.
(Desire , 53-54)
| "Christianity has come to the point where we believe that there is no higher aspiration for the human soul than to be nice...
The greatest enemy of holiness is not passion; it is apathy. Look at Jesus. He was no milksop."
Ray,
I couldn't agree more,
but I don't see how you can read those things into anything I've said.
In 1968, I was confronted by an angry, almost violent, congregation
in Canton, MS, over a sermon and children's sermon I had preached the Sunday before
repudiating racism. I also helped clean up after black churches were burned in Mississippi.
In Texas, in 1973, I personally saw that the Ministerial Association was integrated.
I was very outspoken on the War in Vietnam, something most of my congregation in Kansas in 1971 did not appreciate.
I've taken part in pro-life walks, have been active in environmental causes, etc.
I say all this, not to praise myself - what I have done i really quite small compared to what many have done - but to say that people who believe as I do can be and have been extremely passionate in seeking to live out our commitment to Jesus Christ.
Jesus wept over the city of Jerusalem because they did not know the ways that make for peace. And his tears were justified as the Israelites trust in arms led to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
It was Jesus, remember, who said "You have heard it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth fora tooth.'" [in fact, it was in the Old Testament, remember?] "But I say to you...turn the other cheek.'" That wasn't being a "milk sop," it was recognizing that "an eye for an eye" only makes two people blind! Violence begets violence. Jesus knew it. The early church knew it - Christians were almost universally pacifist, until Constantine co-opted Christianity, and the Church has not been the same since.
Anyway, I hadn't intended to post again, but the suggestion that those who have troubled with the violence in the Old Testament are somehow not passionate for the Gospel, or that we are all about "niceness," is simply not true, and demanded a response.
| I wasn't writing about your behavior. I guess it might appear that way, sorry.
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